|
Post by thefoot on Jun 6, 2024 20:30:37 GMT
It's not just because of the Branthwaite decision. I've disagreed with countless decisions he's made over the years. I find him to be a totally underwhelming manager of our national team during an era where we've had some amazing talent. If you love him, fair enough. You get behind him. We’ve had better talent several times over the last 40 years yet no manager in that time has done as well as Southgate. Nobody slags off Venables or Robson or Eriksson with personal abuse though. Venables is/was seen as a legend in many quarters, yet he couldn’t even get past a semi final in a home tournament full of average teams. Maybe it’s because he’s a bit of cheeky chappy, wide boy whereas Southgate is a bit more straight laced. I disagree. I think Southgate has had the best players to choose from and best chance to win something during my lifetime. Ask yourself why he's so unpopular compared to the likes of Venables or Robson, Keegan or Hoddle. There must be a reason for it.
|
|
|
Post by dstander on Jun 6, 2024 20:36:57 GMT
We’ve had better talent several times over the last 40 years yet no manager in that time has done as well as Southgate. Nobody slags off Venables or Robson or Eriksson with personal abuse though. Venables is/was seen as a legend in many quarters, yet he couldn’t even get past a semi final in a home tournament full of average teams. Maybe it’s because he’s a bit of cheeky chappy, wide boy whereas Southgate is a bit more straight laced. I disagree. I think Southgate has had the best players to choose from and best chance to win something during my lifetime. Ask yourself why he's so unpopular compared to the likes of Venables or Robson, Keegan or Hoddle. There must be a reason for it. Because people see him having a boring personality. He’s exceeded anything any of those England managers have done. Don’t forget the mess the national team was in when he took over, he’s transformed it. Theres no way on earth that the squads Southgate’s worked with so far in tournaments have been better than those of 1996 and 2004, not a chance. We won’t have an easier tournament to win than 96 either, there wasn’t a good team in it!
|
|
|
Post by thefoot on Jun 6, 2024 20:46:13 GMT
I disagree. I think Southgate has had the best players to choose from and best chance to win something during my lifetime. Ask yourself why he's so unpopular compared to the likes of Venables or Robson, Keegan or Hoddle. There must be a reason for it. Because people see him having a boring personality. He’s exceeded anything any of those England managers have done. Don’t forget the mess the national team was in when he took over, he’s transformed it. Theres no way on earth that the squads Southgate’s worked with so far in tournaments have been better than those of 1996 and 2004, not a chance. We won’t have an easier tournament to win than 96 either, there wasn’t a good team in it! He is boring and uninspiring. Apparently he's a good organiser of things behind the scenes. Maybe that's exactly what he should be. Backroom staff. I totally disagree. IMO no previous England manager has had the strength in depth to choose from that Southgate has had. Previously just a few overhyped key players that never fitted or gelled together into a successful team.
|
|
|
Post by bstandbob on Jun 6, 2024 20:47:33 GMT
I personally think we have been too loyal with Southgate. He did a fantastic job in galvanising the squad and bringing in standards that were just not there under previous managers. But I think we needed to take the next step once the ship was steadied. And a more tactically advanced more offensive thinking manager should have taken over after the last Euros. Hopefully he'll prove a few, including myself wrong this summer but I just can't see us winning it as I think we will play too risk aversely.
|
|
|
Post by chorleybluehoss on Jun 6, 2024 22:03:04 GMT
I really don't understand taking Dunk over Branthwaite, and his reasoning was that it was too early for Branthwaite yet he he is taking Wharton after around 20 games in the PL. I think we will find out how Southgate wants to play it from his first team. If he manages to find a team which can have Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Rice, Kane in it then it will depend on who else he picks, if its Gallagher its cautious, Mainoo would be interesting and Palmer would be attacking.
|
|
|
Post by dstander on Jun 6, 2024 22:06:57 GMT
Because people see him having a boring personality. He’s exceeded anything any of those England managers have done. Don’t forget the mess the national team was in when he took over, he’s transformed it. Theres no way on earth that the squads Southgate’s worked with so far in tournaments have been better than those of 1996 and 2004, not a chance. We won’t have an easier tournament to win than 96 either, there wasn’t a good team in it! He is boring and uninspiring. Apparently he's a good organiser of things behind the scenes. Maybe that's exactly what he should be. Backroom staff. I totally disagree. IMO no previous England manager has had the strength in depth to choose from that Southgate has had. Previously just a few overhyped key players that never fitted or gelled together into a successful team. He maybe has strength in depth in advanced areas now, but he hasn’t had to date in major tournaments. Where’s the strength in depth in defence which he’s had? I remember the days when previous managers had to leave the likes of Ian Wright and Robbie Fowler out because of all the options up front, or choose 2 of Campbell, Terry and Ferdinand, whilst leaving 1 out. That’s what you call strength in depth. The squads of 96 and 04 are well ahead of anything Southgate has had so far.
|
|
|
Post by topstepwhinger on Jun 6, 2024 23:06:35 GMT
I can see both sides of the Gareth Southgate debate, and I agree that we probably had better all round squads in 1996 (which we should definitely have won), and 2004. We definitely had better options in defence than we have at present. However, for all his undoubted strengths we should have beaten Italy in the Euros final in 2020 and beaten Croatia in the world cup semi final in 2018. A lot of the reason why we didn't was down to Southgate's negative tactics and poor use of substitutions after taking the lead in both games. I obviously hope we win in Germany, and if we do Southgate will go down as one of our best ever managers. However there will still be questions as to how much better it could have been.
|
|
|
Post by blencathra on Jun 7, 2024 6:26:14 GMT
You've summed it up well Topstep. I've got similar thoughts on Southgate. He's done some very good things but has fallen short in the biggest matches. The same could be said about all our better managers. Venables had some excellent players and home advantage yet failed to get to the final. We actually didn't play that well in some of the games but Gaza's goal and our demolition of Holland are what people remember apart from the penalty defeat in the semi final. In 1990 Robson was strongly criticised for our performances and we could easily have been knocked out earlier in the tournament. Our so called "golden generation " never properly gelled and we never got past the QF stages. Our gutless performance against Brazil exposed Sven's tactical inflexibility and he was rightly criticised. The truth is that apart from 1966 no manager has successfully moulded a squad to win anything. Think of all the other countries who have won major tournaments with squads on paper inferior to ours. It's not all down to the managers and the players need to accept responsibility too. We seem to lack the mental toughness needed when it matters most. For example if we were better at penalties it's possible we could have won something by now. Some teams find a way to win cups when they are below par yet England always seem to find a way to lose. My main criticism of Southgate is his negativity in the critical games and his poor game management particularly against Croatia and Italy. IMO Branthwaite offered something different to the rest of our centre backs and would have been a useful option to have available. His lack of experience though has counted against him and non Carlisle or Everton fans probably won't be as disappointed as we are at his exclusion. I really hope Southgate is vindicated with his selections because I'm sick of losing and would love to see us win something again in my lifetime.
|
|
|
Post by kickergold on Jun 7, 2024 7:49:52 GMT
You've summed it up well Topstep. I've got similar thoughts on Southgate. He's done some very good things but has fallen short in the biggest matches. The same could be said about all our better managers. Venables had some excellent players and home advantage yet failed to get to the final. We actually didn't play that well in some of the games but Gaza's goal and our demolition of Holland are what people remember apart from the penalty defeat in the semi final. In 1990 Robson was strongly criticised for our performances and we could easily have been knocked out earlier in the tournament. Our so called "golden generation " never properly gelled and we never got past the QF stages. Our gutless performance against Brazil exposed Sven's tactical inflexibility and he was rightly criticised. The truth is that apart from 1966 no manager has successfully moulded a squad to win anything. Think of all the other countries who have won major tournaments with squads on paper inferior to ours. It's not all down to the managers and the players need to accept responsibility too. We seem to lack the mental toughness needed when it matters most. For example if we were better at penalties it's possible we could have won something by now. Some teams find a way to win cups when they are below par yet England always seem to find a way to lose. My main criticism of Southgate is his negativity in the critical games and his poor game management particularly against Croatia and Italy. IMO Branthwaite offered something different to the rest of our centre backs and would have been a useful option to have available. His lack of experience though has counted against him and non Carlisle or Everton fans probably won't be as disappointed as we are at his exclusion. I really hope Southgate is vindicated with his selections because I'm sick of losing and would love to see us win something again in my lifetime. I see Southgate's reasoning for leaving Branthwaite (even if I disagree), but funnily enough if you look online, outside of Carlisle circles, the Dunk over Branthwaite decision seems to be the most unpopular one, closely followed by no Grealish (which I actually agree with funnily enough, as he's had a poor year and has said himself he struggled for motivation this season).
|
|
|
Post by vallery on Jun 7, 2024 7:50:29 GMT
Part of the trouble in England is we view everything through our own league. If Shearer, Wright and Fowler are filling their boots every week we expect to blow teams away. We all think of Ferguson as being one of the greatest managers but he won only 2 Champions League titles despite his dominance domestically. The reality was that the rest of the continent were ahead of us, technically and tactically. Barcelona (and Spain) were playing tiki taka, then Germany were gegenpressing their way to humbling Brazil.
I think we've caught up to a degree, continental teams want our young players who have come through our system. You could argue that the golden generation of Gerrard, Lampard, Ferdinand etc weren't even the best in their positions for the club sides (Alonso, Makelele, Vidic) where now Kane, Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Palmer and Rice are key players for their clubs. And that's reflected in results, we're getting close. But no one is going to hand it to you, a bit of luck along the way, winning a penalty shootout... Success is never guaranteed.
|
|
|
Post by bstandbob on Jun 7, 2024 8:27:15 GMT
You've summed it up well Topstep. I've got similar thoughts on Southgate. He's done some very good things but has fallen short in the biggest matches. The same could be said about all our better managers. Venables had some excellent players and home advantage yet failed to get to the final. We actually didn't play that well in some of the games but Gaza's goal and our demolition of Holland are what people remember apart from the penalty defeat in the semi final. In 1990 Robson was strongly criticised for our performances and we could easily have been knocked out earlier in the tournament. Our so called "golden generation " never properly gelled and we never got past the QF stages. Our gutless performance against Brazil exposed Sven's tactical inflexibility and he was rightly criticised. The truth is that apart from 1966 no manager has successfully moulded a squad to win anything. Think of all the other countries who have won major tournaments with squads on paper inferior to ours. It's not all down to the managers and the players need to accept responsibility too. We seem to lack the mental toughness needed when it matters most. For example if we were better at penalties it's possible we could have won something by now. Some teams find a way to win cups when they are below par yet England always seem to find a way to lose. My main criticism of Southgate is his negativity in the critical games and his poor game management particularly against Croatia and Italy. IMO Branthwaite offered something different to the rest of our centre backs and would have been a useful option to have available. His lack of experience though has counted against him and non Carlisle or Everton fans probably won't be as disappointed as we are at his exclusion. I really hope Southgate is vindicated with his selections because I'm sick of losing and would love to see us win something again in my lifetime. Great post Blencathra I totally agree with what you're saying here, particularly regarding the mentality of sides over the years. However I really do think that our players are starting to become stronger in that sense. I think the fruition of the top class academy's that we have now in England, where it's so difficult to make the first team due to so many top players from all over the world. And also many players now going and playing in the other top European leagues is definitely building a much stronger winning mentality.
|
|
|
Post by dstander on Jun 7, 2024 8:35:39 GMT
You've summed it up well Topstep. I've got similar thoughts on Southgate. He's done some very good things but has fallen short in the biggest matches. The same could be said about all our better managers. Venables had some excellent players and home advantage yet failed to get to the final. We actually didn't play that well in some of the games but Gaza's goal and our demolition of Holland are what people remember apart from the penalty defeat in the semi final. In 1990 Robson was strongly criticised for our performances and we could easily have been knocked out earlier in the tournament. Our so called "golden generation " never properly gelled and we never got past the QF stages. Our gutless performance against Brazil exposed Sven's tactical inflexibility and he was rightly criticised. The truth is that apart from 1966 no manager has successfully moulded a squad to win anything. Think of all the other countries who have won major tournaments with squads on paper inferior to ours. It's not all down to the managers and the players need to accept responsibility too. We seem to lack the mental toughness needed when it matters most. For example if we were better at penalties it's possible we could have won something by now. Some teams find a way to win cups when they are below par yet England always seem to find a way to lose. My main criticism of Southgate is his negativity in the critical games and his poor game management particularly against Croatia and Italy. IMO Branthwaite offered something different to the rest of our centre backs and would have been a useful option to have available. His lack of experience though has counted against him and non Carlisle or Everton fans probably won't be as disappointed as we are at his exclusion. I really hope Southgate is vindicated with his selections because I'm sick of losing and would love to see us win something again in my lifetime. Excellent post mate. I’m not for one minute saying Southgate hasn’t got his faults, he’s got several. But looking at the overall picture he’s done an excellent job as England manager, perhaps with a bit more tactical nous and of course luck we’d have won something - don’t forget we’ve only won 1 trophy in 75 years of tournament football. We were in great positions against both Croatia and Italy and failed to capitalise, no doubt some of this was down to Southgate and his in-game management, but people are ignoring the fact that two teams can influence a game of football and both times the opposition came on stronger second half - which they were always going to do. Very fine margins decided both games. There’s also the mentality problem which I think has blighted our national team for years, we don’t seem to have the mental toughness of the Germans and, to a lesser degree, the Argentinians, both of whom are capable of winning tournaments with not necessarily the best team. We seem to be the opposite, finding a way to lose games we should be winning. I do think this is slowly changing though. In short, I don’t think Southgate’s a perfect manager, far from it, but he’s been very good as England manager and deserves a bit more respect than given to him, he certainly doesn’t deserve the personal abuse some give him. I suppose that’s the modern day football fan though…
|
|
|
Post by bstandbob on Jun 7, 2024 8:46:15 GMT
There's a really good program about Wayne Rooney at Euro 2004 on BBC iPlayer at the moment. He was absolutely frightening in that tournament and if he hadn't broken his foot, due to the strength of his mentality as much as his ability there's every chance we could have won that tournament. What he also did say though was that in that Portugal game, he looked at him teammates and thought they looked scared and it was him as an 18 year old boy the "golden generation" of players looked to for belief.
|
|
|
Post by dstander on Jun 7, 2024 8:54:23 GMT
There was some excellent teams in Euro 96. Germany, England, Holland, Czech Republic off the top of my head. There really wasn’t mate. The German squad was one of the most ordinary they’ve had in my lifetime - 2002 being the other. Take Klinsmann and Sammer out (Klinsmann didn’t even play in the semi final against us) and you didn’t have one top player amongst them. Holland had some great individuals but their usual in-fighting and falling out meant they were in total disarray going into the tournament, after struggling in qualification. 90sfootballparty.wordpress.com/2021/06/23/oranje-go-boom-the-dutch-combust-at-euro-96/www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/27/holland-euro-96-racism-englandCzech Republic weren’t a good side at all, they were the surprise package who somehow made it to the final, a feat which showed the standard of the tournament. Spain were in transition, which leaves perhaps France as the next best team to England. Many of their squad were at the start of their emergence into the best side in the world, but they bored the pants off everyone in the knockout stages and lost to a poor Czech team.
|
|
cayambe
Richard Prokas
Posts: 44
Likes: 18
|
Post by cayambe on Jun 7, 2024 9:01:47 GMT
Branthwaite not being involved in the Euros could be good news for us. This will allow him to take a rest and decide on his future, hopefully to our advantage
|
|